False argument stated: "No man, up to Christ's time, had ascended into heaven. this proves, so the false argument goes, that the dead are extinct!"

False argument refuted:

1. Yet Elijah had already ascended into heaven: 2 Ki 2:1 "the Lord was about to take up Elijah by a whirlwind to heaven" Obviously Neo-Sadducees have no idea what Jesus was actually saying!
2. Neo-Sadducees would do well to understand that there is a "spirit world" that includes: God (Eph 1:20), Good angels: (Eph 3:10), Devil and demons (Eph 6:12), Departed spirits of men (Eph 2:6).
3. What Jesus was saying is that no one ascended into the place in heaven that is in the direct presence of God. Jesus was the very first man to do this at his ascension. Up to the cross, no man who died was permitted into the presence of God, because sin had not actually been atoned for. But the dead were still in the "heavenly realm", just not in God's presence!

False argument stated: "The dead cease to exist and are unconscious. Their brain ceases to function and all memory in their brain is lost!"

False interpretation of Eccl 9:3-10

False argument refuted:

Proper interpretation of Eccl 9:3-10

 More on: Eccl 9:5 "for their memory [zeker] is forgotten."

1. The memory of them forgotten: The dead are both forgotten by the living!
2. The "dead know nothing" (NWT: "conscious of nothing") means that the dead are not permitted by God to know what happens on the earth after they die. This also effectively refutes the common idea of Ghosts haunting the living.

 False argument stated: "Job is plainly stating that when we die we cease to have the ability to even have hope, since we enter a state of unconscious non-existence."

False argument refuted:

1. Here Job states that he will not take his hope with him to Sheol. But what hope is this? Hope of resurrection? Hope of being saved? Eternal hope? No! hope of life on the planet!
2. Job 14:19-22 is parallel thought! "So Thou dost destroy man's hope. "Thou dost forever overpower him and he departs;[dies] Thou dost change his appearance and send him away [dies]. "His sons achieve honor, but he does not know it; Or they become insignificant, but he does not perceive it. "But his body pains him, And he mourns only for himself." Notice that Job pictures the dead as being conscious, but unable to know what happens under the son. This is exactly what Eccl 9:5 says. Further, notice that the dead are "paining and mourning for self."
3. This verse says the same thing as: Ps 6:5, Job 17:11-16, Ps 30:9; Ps. 88:3-6,10-14; Psalm 115:17; Isa 38:10-11;17-19. All these verses are looking at death from a human point of view of the contrast between a living body and a dead body.
4. Notice the parallel between Job 17:11-16 and Job 14:19-22, but notice that Job 14 is a powerful proof text for conscious life after death!

• Job 17:11-16: Will it [hope] go down with me to Sheol
• Job 14:19-22 So Thou dost destroy man's hope ... But his body pains him, And he mourns only for himself

 False argument stated: "This verse plainly states that we cannot remember or even mention God's name or even thank God after we die because we are unconscious and no longer exist."

False argument refuted:

1. David is speaking merely from a human "under the son" point of view. Although he sheds tears now, his body will shed no tears in the grave. Sheol here means grave. This is poetry, not some detailed theological statement of the state of the dead.
2. Ps 30:9 contains the same idea: "What profit is there in my blood, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise Thee? Will it declare Thy faithfulness?" David is speaking of a live body vs. a dead body.
3. Notice that EVEN GOD forgets the dead! Ps. 88:3-6 "Forsaken among the dead, Like the slain who lie in the grave, Whom Thou dost remember no more, And they are cut off from Thy hand." Obviously then, this verse is speaking about God blessing a man while in the flesh. To be remembered of God is to be blessed of God. Hades is a place of waiting, not a place of activity.
4. This verse says the same thing as: Ps 6:5, Job 17:11-16, Ps 30:9; Ps. 88:3-6,10-14; Psalm 115:17; Isa 38:10-11;17-19. All these verses are looking at death from a human point of view of the contrast between a living body and a dead body.
5. Eccl 9:5 says "for their memory [Hebrew: "zeker"] is forgotten" see Eccl 9:5 that documents the use of the word "zeder". The meaning is that the dead are forgotten by the living!

 False argument stated: "The dead don't exist consciously and that is why they cannot thank or praise or hope."

False argument refuted:

1. The verse is simply affirming that from a human point of view, a dead body does not praise God. How ridiculous to suggest this poetic verse was intended to give a detailed doctrinal roadmap of the state of the dead.
2. This verse says the same thing as: Ps 6:5, Job 17:11-16, Ps 30:9; Ps. 88:3-6,10-14; Psalm 115:17; Isa 38:10-11;17-19. All these verses are looking at death from a human point of view of the contrast between a living body and a dead body.
3. Notice that EVEN GOD forgets the dead! Ps. 88:3-6 "Forsaken among the dead, Like the slain who lie in the grave, Whom Thou dost remember no more, And they are cut off from Thy hand." Obviously then, this verse is speaking about God blessing a man while in the flesh. To be remembered of God is to be blessed of God. Hades is a place of waiting, not a place of activity. When we die, God ceases to do things for us, like when we were alive. We must await judgement and resurrection.
4. Perhaps another key to understanding this verse is the use of the word PIT! The pit is only where the wicked go. They are without hope and cannot rely upon God.

Why do only the wicked dead go to the pit? [pit = Heb: bowr]

• Ps 28:1,3 To Thee, O Lord, I call; My rock, do not be deaf to me, Lest, if Thou be silent to me, I become like those who go down to the pit. ... Do not drag me away with the wicked And with those who work iniquity
• Isaiah 14:15 "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.
• Psalm 88:4,6 I am reckoned among those who go down to the pit; I have become like a man without strength ... Thou hast put me in the lowest pit, In dark places, in the depths.
• Isaiah 14:19 "But you have been cast out of your tomb Like a rejected branch, Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit, Like a trampled corpse.
• Isaiah 38:16-19 O restore me to health, and let me live! "Lo, for my own welfare I had great bitterness; It is Thou who hast kept my soul from the pit of destruction, For Thou hast cast all my sins behind Thy back. "For Sheol cannot thank Thee, Death cannot praise Thee; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Thy faithfulness. "It is the living who give thanks to Thee, as I do today. [Some misuse this verse to teach that man goes into extinction at death. They argue, "there is no hope or giving of thanks in the pit". We agree, the wicked have no hope and therefore only curse God.]
• Ezekiel 26:20 then I shall bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I shall make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth, like the ancient waste places, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I shall set glory in the land of the living.
• Ezekiel 31:14 in order that all the trees by the waters may not be exalted in their stature, nor set their top among the clouds, nor their well-watered mighty ones stand erect in their height. For they have all been given over to death, to the earth beneath, among the sons of men, with those who go down to the pit."
• Ezekiel 31:16 "I made the nations quake at the sound of its fall when I made it go down to Sheol with those who go down to the pit; and all the well-watered trees of Eden, the choicest and best of Lebanon, were comforted in the earth beneath.
• Ezek 32:18,21,23,24,25,29,30 "Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and bring it down, her and the daughters of the powerful nations, to the nether world, with those who go down to the pit ... 21 "The strong among the mighty ones shall speak of him and his helpers from the midst of Sheol, 'They have gone down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.'
• Jonah 2:2,6 "I called out of my distress to the Lord, And He answered me. I cried for help from the depth of Sheol; Thou didst hear my voice." ... "I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its bars was around me forever, But Thou hast brought up my life from the pit. (Jonah was a disobedient prophet who was thrown into the pit symbolically.)

 False argument stated: "It is impossible for the dead to praise God because they are unconscious and do not exist."

False argument refuted:

1. God was angry with David and he knew he was going to suffer the fate of the wicked (cast into the pit). Notice it does not say the blood goes down to the pit, but that the blood and body turn to dust while David is consciously in the pit. David is merely saying that a dead corpse cannot praise God. We agree! It says nothing about what David would do from the pit! Again, David does not want God to judge him and cast him into the PIT where only the wicked go! David is pleading for mercy!
2. The verse is simply affirming that from a human point of view, a dead body does not praise God. How ridiculous to suggest this poetic verse was intended to give a detailed doctrinal roadmap of the state of the dead. Neo-Sadducees make way too much of verses like this when there is a simple answer!
3. This verse says the same thing as: Ps 6:5, Job 17:11-16, Ps 30:9; Ps. 88:3-6,10-14; Psalm 115:17; Isa 38:10-11;17-19. All these verses are looking at death from a human point of view of the contrast between a living body and a dead body.
4. Perhaps another key to understanding this verse is the use of the word PIT! The pit is only where the wicked go. They are without hope and cannot rely upon God. click here for pit

 False argument stated: "The dead do not praise God, speak of God's faithfulness or lovingkindness. The realm of the dead is called the land of forgetfulness, indicating that the memory in the brains of the living are all lost and forgotten."

False argument refuted:

1. This is a Psalm when God was angry with man for his sin. v5. God has assigned the man to the pit. Remember only the wicked are sent to the pit, not the righteous.
2. Neo-Sadducees pick on the phrase, "land of forgetfulness" try to make this it say that the dead forget all their knowledge in their brains, a kind of amnesia that is metaphoric for extinction. But notice that the dead who are sent to the "land of forgetfulness" and are forgotten by God: "Thou dost remember no more". Does God literally forget who the dead are? No! In fact the whole context is limited to the wicked. This proves that this verse is not making a universal commentary on the state of the dead, for according to Neo-Sadducees, their state is identical!
3. There are many other passages that speak of the wicked being forgotten and forsaken by God after death and the righteous are remembered after death. This proves that these statements are not defining the realm of the dead as unconscious non-existence, but rather are poetic expressions. Prov 14:32 "The wicked is thrust down by his wrongdoing, But the righteous has a refuge when he dies." Prov 10:7 "The memory of the righteous is blessed, But the name of the wicked will rot."
4. Therefore the obvious truth is that the righteous dead are not forgotten by God, and only the wicked go to the pit!
5. This verse says the same thing as: Ps 6:5, Job 17:11-16, Ps 30:9; Ps. 88:3-6,10-14; Psalm 115:17; Isa 38:10-11;17-19. All these verses are looking at death from a human point of view of the contrast between a living body and a dead body.

 False argument stated: "It is impossible for the dead to praise God because they do not exist and are unconscious as 'go down into silence' indicates".

False argument refuted:

1. This Psalm is a contrast between the wicked who worship idols and the righteous who worship Jehovah.
2. This verse is saying that the wicked dead do not praise God, but the righteous dead do... the wicked dead go down into silence, but the righteous dead do not. This meaning is confirmed by these verses: 1 Sam 2:9 "He keeps the feet of His godly ones, But the wicked ones are silenced in darkness" and Ps 31:17 "Let me not be put to shame, O Lord, for I call upon Thee; Let the wicked be put to shame, let them be silent in Sheol." Therefore clear implication is that only the wicked are silenced in Sheol! It is a specific poetic symbolic penalty for the unrighteous and not a universal state of the dead. Notice again that the wicked are pictured as consciously existing, but are kept silent. All the while the righteous dead are not silent!
3. The verse may be simply affirming that from a human point of view, a dead body does not praise God. How ridiculous to suggest this poetic verse was intended to give a detailed doctrinal roadmap of the state of the dead.

 False argument stated: "God had wiped our all the memory banks of the dead and has destroyed them. The dead don't exist, they are annihilated

 False argument refuted:

1. The verse is simply saying that the wicked will not be remembered ON EARTH. They have no lasting memorial as the righteous do. click here to view more on remembrance.
2. The verse, according to Neo-Sadduceeian logic, also says there is no resurrection, for it says, "The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise". Some Neo-Sadducees, like Christadelphians, actually teach that the wicked dead will not be raised from the dead! We applaud their consistency (which Jw's and SDA's always lack) but feel that such a conclusion is wrong in light of Acts 24:15, "there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked"

 False argument stated: "At death, the memory inside of the brain of man perishes, the man ceases to exist and no longer has consciousness."

False argument refuted:

1. This Psalm is a contrast between trusting in flesh and trusting in God.
2. Whereas a dead man's plans, thoughts, designs, business arrangements are unavailable to the living (they "perish" from an "under the sun" point of view) God is always there (keeps faith forever)

1. The verse is simply affirming that from a human point of view, the dead are of no further help to life under the sun! How ridiculous to suggest this poetic verse was intended to give a detailed doctrinal roadmap of the state of the dead. This Psalm is not making a mechanical statement on the mental thought activity of the dead.

1. Neo-Sadducees pick on the phrase, "his thoughts perish" try to make this it say that the dead forget all their knowledge in their brains. Like turning off a computer before you save a document and lose all data. But notice that the dead said in other verses to be forgotten by God: "Thou dost remember no more". Ps 88:5. Does God literally forget who the dead are? Is God unable to remember the thoughts that the dead man had? No! The man is still conscious after he dies, but is unable to continue "building his dreams on earth".
2. His "great invention" is lost forever! Know one will ever know what it was! He, being a departed spirit still remembers his dreams and inventions, he is simply unable to carry them out or communicate them to the living! Men have all kinds of great plans for life under the sun. When they die nothing more is ever done!
3. The following verses are parallel and show that, "in that very day his thoughts perish" Ps 146, means that his plans are lost to the living! The dead are also unable to communicate with the living their plans!

• Job 17:10 "My days are past, my plans are torn apart, Even the wishes of my heart. "They make night into day, saying, 'The light is near,' in the presence of darkness. "If I look for Sheol as my home, I make my bed in the darkness; If I call to the pit, 'You are my father'
• James 4:13-14 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow, we shall go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit." Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.
• Lk 12:16-21 "The land of a certain rich man was very productive. "And he began reasoning to himself, saying, 'What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?' "And he said, 'This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 'And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."' "But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?' "So is the man who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."
• Job 14:20-22 "Thou dost forever overpower him and he departs [dies]; Thou dost change his appearance and send him away. "His sons achieve honor, but he does not know it; Or they become insignificant, but he does not perceive it. "But his body pains him, And he mourns only for himself."
• Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, verily, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.
• Job 4:20-21 'Between morning and evening they are broken in pieces; Unobserved, they perish forever. 'Is not their tent-cord plucked up within them? They die, yet without wisdom.' (they die without the wisdom of knowing God while they lived: see Job 18:21; 36:12, this verse is not saying that their wisdom in their brain perishes after they die.)
• Ps 39:6 "Surely every man walks about as a phantom; Surely they make an uproar for nothing; He amasses riches, and does not know who will gather them.
• Job 14:1-15 "Man, who is born of woman, Is short-lived and full of turmoil. "Like a flower he comes forth and withers. He also flees like a shadow and does not remain. "Thou also dost open Thine eyes on him, And bring him into judgment with Thyself. "Who can make the clean out of the unclean? No one! "Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with Thee, And his limits Thou hast set so that he cannot pass. "Turn Thy gaze from him that he may rest, Until he fulfills his day like a hired man. "For there is hope for a tree, When it is cut down, that it will sprout again, And its shoots will not fail. "Though its roots grow old in the ground, And its stump dies in the dry soil, At the scent of water it will flourish And put forth sprigs like a plant. "But man dies and lies prostrate. Man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens be no more, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep. "Oh that Thou wouldst hide me in Sheol, That Thou wouldst conceal me until Thy wrath returns to Thee, That Thou wouldst set a limit for me and remember me! "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait, Until my change comes. "Thou wilt call, and I will answer Thee;

1. The state of the dead is identical for righeous and wicked as taught by Neo-Sadducees: Jehovah's Witnesses (Jw's), Christadelphians, Seventh-day Adventists (SDA), Herbert W. Armstrong: Worldwide Church of God (WCG).
2. But the Bible clearly indicates that there is a huge difference in the state of the dead as seen by this summary chart below.
3. This chart proves that Neo-Sadducees are apostate false teachers who define the dead as unconscious and non-existent. Neo-Sadducees are false teachers who have no Bible data to support their false view.
4. The Bible clearly teaches that all the dead exist and that there are two opposite conditions for the righteous and wicked dead.
5. Positive Bible proof that man consciously survives death

Positive Bible proof that man consciously survives death

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